A Conversation With Freezer (pt 2)

Image appropriated from here.

It looks like the fine folks at New Orleans Punk Rock /New Wave Scene 1976-82 finally discovered my published correspondence with one Arthur AG Parr aka "Freezer", who had passed away in June 2012.

He seems to be described as very intelligent...and cranky / ill-tempered, maybe did not suffer fools gladly and had his own twisted sense of honor / justice.

This is all very strange 15 years on (10 years on from the writeup) looking back how I got hooked in, as I had shared a Sex Pistols recording that you would have thought was his, with the voluminous commenting at his end about it, but turns out to have been taped by someone else....who is very much still around and sharing their reminiscences.

Someone says "Throw something at him" before the start of GSTQ handily identifies the trio of recordings that are up on YouTube being from the same (only known circulating) source...

This particular rendition featured right below sounds better and has more before the start...being posted about 8 years ago, it doesn't have the interview the newer one above does, but that has nothing to do with being contemporaneous to the show, and is sourced from vinyl to boot (so to speak)...

Or you can just grab the one I posted to DIME from back in the day, which I'm sure the Youtube share is sourced from.  Had it on a DVD-R that I pulled out from where I had it stashed and upped it to a filesharing site.  As ijwthstd believes, everything is copied from everything else...and will get reposted, eventually.

Anyway, as much as I can stomach to, not really just due to Art being mad mad mad at RH and *especially* Skull, but also because of all the other correspondence that I never really fully, properly processed, I'll see what else I can scrounge up.  

First of all, think there are a couple of Skul(l)s here....I found this message from 2009-02-28 which should help identify the Skull in question...this actually was posted in the (part 1) post but am resharing it here as it may have gotten buried in the lede, so to speak.

Going to see if I can get the DIME PM look going too.

This is from 2009-02-28....

Hiya Sam,Yes - I know all of the aforementioned people except this "Freezer" guy, who turns out to be a real jerk (unfortunately).I worked with both Skull and Tom Martin at a record store on Decatur Street in the mid/late '80's. Jerry Schumacher should have the master of that Siouxsie show. I haven't seen/heard from Tom in some time, but I believe I have his addy somewhere. I saw Reed when I went back to NOLA last year during Jazz Fest, at the Roky Erickson show.I doubt Skull taught at Tulane; perhaps that is someone else. The Skull I (and Tom Martin) knew was in a band called Skin Sect and before the record store worked at a clothing store called BONGO (on Royal Street).Anyways, it was good to hear from you. Let me know if you have any other information...-Matt

Okay, before finding more Parr vitriol, here's one such message from 2008-04-14, completely unrelated to this, except that I was trying to look back from 2009-01-17 when the long message from Freezer was shared. 

I miss this aspect about DIME, what I don't miss was the 16-bit repost requests when sharing 24-bit or people sending your their long lists of stuff you had no interest in...I went back to look for more messages, and realized I may have just cleared them out, though I may have archived them *somewhere*...maybe this will be part three.

I went into my old messages to actually get your name to ask you a recording question, and I found this message that I don't think I ever saw. I'm guessing Manson doesn't have much to do with recording restrictions, as he's said in the past he doesn't even mind if people share the official stuff - he just doesn't like that that leads to songs being heard out of context. Manson shows and events (like the book signing he did downtown about ten years ago) tend to have pretty tough security, I guess because he's had a lot of violent threats over the years. The band I was in was called Convalescent Surprise. We broke up awhile back and no one noticed. It was fun while it was lasted. I'm not sure if there's anything to listen to online. Probably somewhere. A radio station in Davis kept playing us long after we broke up.   [ed note: Probably KDVS and Artful Spastic] The recording question I wanted to ask was - have you had trouble losing parts of a recording made with the Tunetalk? I had no trouble transferring one full cassette and no trouble recording Flipper at Amoeba, but the Manson show had a handful of jumps in each song (as one person said, it's like a heavily scratched LP) and I had the same problem when I recorded the Counting Crows last week. That one really pissed me off - it was a show for a couple hundred people, two and a half hours, and I don't know that anyone else really tried to record it, and I kept it recording beginning to end and ended up with about an hour and fifty minutes. Where the extra 40 minutes went, I have no idea, and it's very frustrating having a song suddenly jump ahead to a completely different part. Is this something you've experienced, and do you know how to prevent it? I heard using low quality would work, but it didn't. I'm wondering if just going to a show with an empty ipod is the answer. I haven't had a chance to try that idea yet. -Josh

The smartass answer in order to prevent it would have been "use a real recorder!"...probably what was really going on is his phone was running out of space and the remaining flash was fragmented...not sure if that's what I actually told him.

Here's another message from peyotero (in blue, italicized) with my responses underneath in green.

Hi Sam, I seem to recall that guy Freezer doing the same thing over a Zeppelin recording of his from New Orleans, there was (& probably still is) reams of pages of it on the Traders Den, disputing lineages, claiming the tape had been stolen from him etc. Yes, I've read much of that thread and it's a downright mess. I'll say that Freezer (Arthur) is very atypical, and may have other issues in his life going on. So best to leave it at that. It may well be that when he saw the Pistols they weren't that good, Matlock had gone, the band was starting to fall apart, and they were often dealing with hostile audiences., the Lesser Free Trade Hall gig however was of a band at the start of it's career, eager for success & putting everything into their performance. The audience at this gig were enthusiastic even though most were not punks, many were fans of bands like the Stooges, MC5, Elevators etc (myself included)... What's striking to me is the sense of continuity between what had gone on before and what the Pistols were doing...all the cover songs are a good clue to attest to that. The separation from preceding eras of music (the whole 'Year Zero' concept) seems to have been more retrospective...or maybe it developed as "Punk" ethic developed, with the battle lines getting drawn. Looking back now it's probably pretty silly but back then people were getting beat up over it. As well as interest in this era of music, I also knew Pete McNeish as we were at school together in Leigh, and still saw him & Howard regularly at the BIT students union on Saturday nights which used to put gigs on every week - if only I'd taped some of those bands! - Arthur Browns Kingdom Come, Judas Priest (pre 1st album) Wild Turkey, Fruup etc. Given the connections it was inevitable I would go to this gig, The recorder came along as there was nothing available by the Pistols at the time, so I decided to record something for myself, never thinking that 34 years later I'd still be talking about that tape!!! Cool. I was reading that the tape of this show became the first Pistols bootleg in August '77...and I think even by then their album hadn't come out yet. I bet the original bootleg only contains the first 10 songs due to having to fit the songs onto the platter...but there must be later bootleg issues that have 12 or all 14 songs. I bet all the remastering was probably done by the silver CD compilers... I'm curious if you taped other things onwards or if your Pistols effort was a one-off...I'm an active taper myself, but have the luxury of using compact digital recorders and cardioid mics tucked underneath the shirt rather than the gear you guys had to cobble together. :) The tape was the first ever Pistols release, it came out very quickly and I soon worked out the route by which it reached the pressers, as my vinyl copy came from the guy who passed on the 2nd gen!! with hindsight its fortunate that that 2nd gen was done as otherwise we could have lost the recording completely. At the time I was a bit annoyed to find I'd bought an album of my own tape, but also rather pleased to have it on vinyl. I did tape quite a number of gigs back then, almost all of which are in circulation, the only ones that come to mind that haven't gone out are a couple of Johnny Thunders, Ted Nugent at Reading Festival with a classic mistake on the Intro ... Hello London!!! whoops wrong city!! A couple of Hawkwinds & a Pink Fairies. I gave up recording in the mid - late eighties, but about 3 years ago I went to see the Stooges in Leeds & the bug bit again, I had a phone with the ability to record in wav, so I decided to test it out & got half of the gig in listenable but not great sound, this soon led to me purchasing an Edirol R09 and I'm back taping again, the last things I got were Acid Mothers Temple in Oxford & Wilko Johnson in St Helens. Cheers John

Okay...here's another message which is actually from Freezer...brrr...dating from 2009-09-16...some months *later* than what I had shared...I can imagine him going to the reunion and then returning to DIME, thinking "I'LL SHOW EM..." when most everybody (including me) had moved on months ago...

Hello Sam..... There was a reunion on the anniversary of the founding week of WTUL at Tulane. NOBODY there knew "Skull" or "Reed". Nobody remembered either. (at least on the nights I was there) However, I can send you a link to a site here 'tis: http://lipwak.blogspot.com/2009_03_08_archive.html I'm mentioned by name. AND: I have agreed to be in a new band/project now with the Normals' drummer, Chris Luckette (whom you postulated that "Reed" might have gotten recordings from -- of the Normals' 9/8/79 show at the Warehouse.) From my conversation with him last week: He doesn't know either Skull or Reed either, so he says. Your copy of the Sex Pistols tape may be even further removed from the master than we earlier suspected. Now you know why I don't trust anyone whom I never traded with when they claim to have a specific lineage on one of my recordings. Especially someone who doesn't want to converse with the taper, as "Reed" didn't want to clear the issue about his bogus lineage? How many people are now passing around a copy of the Sex Pistols show with bogus lineage thanks to "Reed"? Wanna hazard a guess? oh well......... best regards, freezer

For what it's worth, I now think Freezer must not have realized or been in abject denial that the taper may have made other first generation copies (why would he not?), one of which went to "Skul(l)" which then made it to RH.  

In listening back to this as I type this up, there's no way given the age and circumstances this is much worse than a copy of a copy...  I just didn't want to have our frozen friend remain in a twist over it, so I eventually "corrected" the information therein.  Would love for the original taper to evaluate this.

And all I would have to say to Freezer is "better a show with 'bogus' lineage heard than ones rotting away on tape, unheard".  About the only legitimate reason(s) to withhold material involve pre-release live recordings artists haven't even *recorded* yet or something that would embarrass them greatly due to being in a bad state.  I've encountered both scenarios and have done the human thing and honored their requests.

The recording of this show just finished...and so have I....for now...

A conversation with Freezer (pt 1)

Image appropriated from here.

A conversation with 'Freezer', part 1.  Rest in peace, Arthur G. Parr.

I didn't want this to just languish away, so have decided to publish my correspondence with him.  I'm not sure what anybody reading will get out of this.  This is the first entry of what promises to be many.  The messages have been minimally edited, mostly for formatting and to fix any misspellings.

The Sex Pistols recording that had started the brouhaha was posted back on 2008-12-07.  To date, no better version of the Kingfish New Orleans date has surfaced.

I had asked Mr. Parr about another recording, New York Dolls, I believe, and asked "Wonder if this was one of yours...no lineage given...", along with a list of tapes Reed had done which intersected with recordings that Parr was involved with, and got back a massive reply:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

2009-01-17 12:50:59 GMT

No, it's not.

By that time, I'd moved to Los Angeles/Hollywood and was working in a band out there, and taping in the Southern California area.

However, again another, a different one of my master tapes has shown up on dimeadozen -- this time with NO information given, or more likely, all information removed -- though there is the slight possibility that it may just be an alternate tape of a show I recorded. VERY slight.

http://www.tapecity.org/showthread.php?t=22017  (url defunct)

http://www.dimeadozen.org/mes..receiver=9355&replyto=1036122  (likewise)

However, the fact that it's a 36 year old tape (36 years ago TONIGHT, in fact...) of a show that was sparsely attended, due to the bad weather and small venue, makes it harder to imagine that another taper was at the show, considering the number of tapers around in 1973 in New Orleans......sigh...oh well.

In your previous message you alluded to my sort of 'disappearance', well, here's why...

The reason that I have dropped out of sight lately is that I'm just getting tired of beating the same dead horse. (Another owner of a private tracker appeared at TTD to bait me into a flame match, another of the 'entitlement" gang, he's entitled to every recording, and he does not dirty his hands making tapes, but spent 'thousands' to remaster shows. He wouldn't sully his hands on anything I recorded, but when I looked at his site, sure enough, there were a number of my tapes, and all with the correct lineage removed, except one, a Jeff Beck/Jan Hammer show from the :Where House" in New Orleans on 12/8/76, which "couldn't be a freezer tape" even though he heard my voice on it... go figure...)

I know that sometimes another recording pops up of a show that I also taped, but, well, without going into detail, I've noticed other listings that you've said were on Reed's list, and these are also shows that I attended and recorded. I'm just not telling you which others overlap.

I'll just wait and see what else pops up over time.

.........

Sam, you've been totally straightforward with me, and I hate to with-hold anything, but I've just re-read much of our previous communications.

All along you've been defending Reed and taking a stance that when and if Alan "Skull" Lorber re-surfaces, all of those muddled lineages will be cleared up.

All along, I've actually contacted some of my old close and not so close friends in the New Orleans band scene from the 70s and 80s and NO ONE knew this name, no one remembers anyone with the nickname SKULL.

Not one of the folks I spoke to or e-mailed knew Reed either.

After re-reading our messages back and forth, I'm sorry, but I'm highly doubting that there even is a "Skull" Lorber. Or that such a person existed.

You are only going by what your friend Reed told you, I'm talking to people who were a part of the New Orleans Punk/New Wave crowd. A scene I was a part of, where I worked nightly. Why is it that no one knows of either of the named you gave me, Sam?

I sat with a friend who owned one of the music venues and he didn't know either.

Why are you so positive that there even was this "Skull" person?

Sam, I'm trying to be polite, and I'm not accusing you, but I was there and O can supply tapes of bands I was in or worked for.

Sam, I was at that Sex Pistols show. Your friend, Reed, was not. Yet you have taken his word while you let him cast doubt on someone who is a lot higher up the food chain than he was, no matter what he told you. In fact, he's let you defend his second hand story, while sitting on the side lines not wanting to get involved.

A Google search on Alan "Skull" Lorber revealed nothing.

I also did a search on Reed, I see there is a Reed Hayward at [redacted] in New Orleans. My grandparents lived at 1104 Seventh. I know the neighborhood well. Its near the corner of Magazine Street in New Orleans.

You've said that Reed had some problems post Katrina, well so did I, as did most residents of this city. That's not a valid excuse to me, it's a common experience.

You've said that you noticed much about me from what you saw on Traders Den, well, that's the tip of the iceberg, I actually resurfaced about 2002 when I first started playing around on line. One night in 2002 I started wondering if any of the old recordings I made were still being traded about.

Silly me, not only were they being traded about, there were guys offering digital copies made directly from the master tapes. Especially in the Led Zeppelin circles.

When I started telling people that this couldn't be true -- because the masters hadn't been even played in over 20 years and that I was the taper and knew that for a fact there were never any digital copies from the masters ever made, well, damn me, I was flamed left and right because no one wanted to believe that what they had wasn't what their good trading buddy told them.

From people who blatantly told me they were 'entitled' to share my recordings while I got zilch in return for the privelege of giving something to them.

While you and I have been entirely civil to one another, you've alluded to your friend Reed, being offended because I pointed out that the lineage you gave out was incorrect....and I did so only to keep the trade pool clean.  [ed note: I think Reed was more offended by the tone of the interaction]

Should I not feel offended that someone gave you incorrect lineage and didn't publicly apologize for their error??

And whether or not your friend Reed was intentional or not with his faulty lineage, there are now people who believe they have something they just don't have. And neither you nor I know if Reed has traded or passed around that recording before or since with the incorrect lineage.

Someone peed in the trade pool, intentionally or not.

I again tell you I don't know Reed, I never traded with him, and I have no idea why his lineages are wrong on recordings that I made. But dead wrong they are. Absolutely.

When you sent me that short list of New Orleans tapes, and I saw recordings I actually mixed and those lineages are so thoroughly dead wrong, I must tell you that now I'm suspicious....and you can hardly blame me for feeling that way.

That Normals tape from the Warehouse is the capper. Their soundman, Jess, was so loaded that night, he fell asleep, and me and Vince (from Sound City, a New Orleans instrument and amplifier retailer) did the actual mix. I only recorded a portion of the Normals set, mainly because I didn't like the band, (though the drummer is a friend).

I didn't even use anything but a cheap C-60 to record on, because I wasn't planning to record the Normals, but as the soundman for the Dukes, I usually had a bag of cables and tools and I just happened to have a tape that I recorded over to capture the Normals on.
(there were heroin addicts in that band, and I always made it a point never to hang around or work with addicts, I eventually quit working with the Dukes for the same reason).

That someone should claim to have that as M1 (or first gen if I'm reading it correctly) is incredulous to me. I gave ONE copy to Chris Luckette, their drummer, and I suspect that Chris gave a copy to Jess, and from there it was spread about. And the tape I gave to Chris was on a crappy C-60, as I was not in the habit of giving high bias tapes away. Why would I, as I was in the habit of being paid to work at mixing, not spending money for the "privilege" of mixing a band I didn't care for.

And calling that a "rare" recording is crazy. I can make that readily available, in a lower gen than anyone else could, but outside of a handful of New Orleans fanatics, who cares?
It's a waste of time.

Sam, I am not looking to argue with you, I'm just trying to get you to see the logic on my side and the complete absurdity of what you've told me is either coming from Reed or what you are trying to posture as a possibility for the incorrect lineages.

In any case the bottom line is this, Reed does not have what he told you....a copy of the Sex Pistols tape from Baton Rouge in 1978 with a verifiable lineage.

If and when it shows again, I will point out that no copy of the Pistols BR 1978 is in circulation with a correct and verifiable lineage, no matter how many 'nighttwats' are trolling with the belief that they are "entitled" to something they weren't offered. I will trade if I'm offered something I want, but that's it.... Otherwise, I suggest that what you offered is a slight "upgrade" from the common bootleg, but that's like saying a $200 dollar Ford is better than a $250 Ford, or that an Orange bean is better than a Red bean, its hardly any difference.

I don't know, Sam, but I suspect that somewhere along the line, that Sex Pistols Baton Rouge recording was misrepresented on purpose. Since I have not heard from anyone but you, all I know is that someone prior to you must be the the guilty party and there is only one actual name listed. I have to think that if your friend is not at fault, then he would have been stepping up to defend his claims about this "Skull" person or trying to at least help in solving this 'mystery'.

He didn't.

And none of our private communications were made public, AND my public statements were bland, stating only that the lineage was incorrect. Further, Reed has no right to feel indignant, you actually do, and not with me, but with the person who left you hanging out on that limb.  [for the record, I don't feel this way]

Actually I have more right to feel indignant than he does, I am not offering his recordings at all, much less with incorrect lineage. And I'm not indignant or even angry....just at a loss to understand why there are so many recordings now in circulation with bad lineage, and no one stepping up to try to correct the matter when spotted.

But I do know that some tapers I knew years ago think its funny that their old tapes are the cause of such heights of foolishness, as to cause traders to pass around bad copies as masters.

I believe that's why you met with folks actually believing that you were really passing around a low gen copy of the Pistols in Baton Rouge recording. There is a need to think that they are actually getting something from the experience. In other words, they traded in their 200 dollar Ford for a 250 dollar Ford. Its a big deal to someone who was on a bicycle, right?

You're right, there was no offer from me on the table to trade with Reed, it was me wondering aloud why he wasn't interested in trying to obtain something with a correct lineage from the only person who could offer such.

Oh well, this has gone on way too long in this reply and has gone on for far too many back and forth messages.

You can forward this on to Reed if you like and either of you can contact me when and if this "Skull" person does appear. I'm betting I'll never hear from either Reed or "Skull".... but I'm sure I won't have heard the last of this 'low-gen' copy of the Pistols in Baton Rouge now.

I'm really getting burnt out on the hobby myself, and it really doesn't matter that lineages aren't kept. Once we're gone, nobody will care or will be able to sort out a true and correct lineage anyway. They'll be too many Reeds with friends like "Skull" who become the standard..... and then everyone can have all "low gens" and no one will have to bother about lineages, everybody will all have master clones of everything.

....whether they are or not.

(The Led Zeppelin community is already there, along with the Pink Floyd collectors.)

Sorry for wasting your time, Sam. You're a good guy and your heart is in the right place, but you're swimming upstream against a riptide....But thanks for letting an old guy prove a point to you.... That's why I started out with the links to that Free 1/17/73 show. Even after making a master copy available, somebody had to pee in the trade pool.

Best regards,
Art

and on the subject of the NY Dolls tapes:

http://www.thetradersden.org/..ost.php?p=723912&postcount=41
(another defunct URL)

And the person who got the Pistols recording is NOT the same as the people who got that Dolls recording. And the band members who got those tapes do not know Skull either, I've spoken to them.

The Kinks
Sept. 24, 1980
Centroplex, Baton Rouge

intro--You Really Got Me
The Hard Way
Where Have All The Good Times Gone -- Tired Of Waiting
Catch Me Now I'm Falling
Bird Dog
Lola
Low Budget
(Wish I Could Fly Like) Superman
Imagination's Real
(??)
You Really Got Me (tape flip)
A Gallon Of Gas
Celluloid Heroes
All Day and All Of The Night
Attitude
Pressure
Twist and Shout
(??)
David Watts

Elvis Costello and the Attractions
January 23, 1981
The Warehouse
New Orleans, LA

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2009-02-28 20:37:34 GMT

This was followed by an exchange from somebody involved in the "New Wave" New Orleans happenings:

Yes, this was Reed's recording, a really good one too. It turns out that what dimenew posted is most likely a digital clone of Tom Martin's first-gen copy, dimenew mentioned that he had gotten this from a big Butthole Surfers/Big Black fan quite a while ago (not remembering the name), which according to Reed was a good description of what Tom's musical preferences were. So you're right...but it's untrue that he never made digital copies, since while the master tape itself is misplaced, at least two CD-R clones from it were made, with Jerry (Reed's friend who maintains his collection currently) having one and Mark B. in Redlands, CA having the other. At some point, the hope is that a digital copy from the master can be made available.

On another topic, would you have any idea who the 'Freezer' guy that posted in the Sex Pistols Baton Rouge '78 seed I put up may be? As best I gathered, his first name is Art/Artie, which may be short for Stuart, and he apparently in addition to taping (according to him) thousands of shows in Louisiana since 1967, was also in one of the area "new wave" bands and did live sound mixing from time to time. Also, not sure if you have any more information on "Skull" (Alan Lorber)...Reed said that he taught at Tulane University, and it turns out that 'Freezer' was a grad student during that time, but denies ever knowing or having any interaction with this person. Most strange.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, by the way.

--Sam

Hiya Sam,

Yes - I know all of the aforementioned people except this "Freezer" guy, who turns out to be a real jerk (unfortunately).

I worked with both Skull and Tom Martin at a record store on Decatur Street in the mid/late '80's. Jerry Schumacher should have the master of that Siouxsie show. I haven't seen/heard from Tom in some time, but I believe I have his addy somewhere. I saw Reed when I went back to NOLA last year during Jazz Fest, at the Roky Erickson show.

I doubt Skull taught at Tulane; perhaps that is someone else. The Skull I (and Tom Martin) knew was in a band called Skin Sect and before the record store worked at a clothing store called BONGO (on Royal Street).

Anyways, it was good to hear from you. Let me know if you have any other information...

-Matt